Anita Wong was kind enough to give us a review if John Woo’s epic “Red Cliff” and Todd posted it on the main page, but boy did it start a discussion when she decribed she [i]” ...stopped watching John Woo films when he started working with the whities”.

That comment sparked quite a debate in the comments. As things tend to keep civil here at Twitch, it didn’t turn into a yelling contest or a match in throwing insults, so I’m reposting all of it here.

Reader Comments

Dudley
07/17/2008 @ 7:05am
“working with the whities”?

I’ve been visiting this site on a daily basis for years and this is the first time I’ve been offended. Replace “whities” with any other racial slur, would it still be ok? Accept one racial slur and you make others easier to accept. Before you jump to any conclusions my family comes from China.
 

Rhythm-X
07/17/2008 @ 9:09am
I almost posted the entire lyrics to James Kochalka Superstar’s “Don’t Trust Whitey” just for the hell of it, but I decided against it.  I’ll summarize; be careful around white people.  They might be up to something nefarious at any given moment.

What does this have to do with RED CLIFF?  Not much.

Ardvark
07/17/2008 @ 10:39am
I enjoyed both the review and cpa314’s comments immensely, both are valuable for me to get an idea for this film. I can see how a baby-saving scene would seem suspicious.

As for the ‘whitey’ remark, two things:

1: At no time did I get the idea this was meant as a serious racial slur. It is a reference to the opinions of some VERY angry Chinese people who saw their favorite director move to the US to pursue a career that wasn’t catering to them, his oldest fans.

2: Being white, I actually laughed when I read that. “Whitey” has been the cause of a great many problems throughout history, compared to which this one is so minor that it hardly feels worth mentioning.
I thought it was rather witty actually, pulling the issue of John Woo going West completely out of proportion.

About racism in general: I think the APM count (assholes-per-million) is roughly the same for all people, regardless of color, religion, sexual preference, nationality or historical context, so you can’t really use any of those to judge an individual.

Anyway, about the novel: what is the best of the known English translations? I’m VERY interested in reading this!

The Visitor
07/17/2008 @ 11:53am
actually i was immediately reminded of the Sly & The Family Stone song, Don’t Call Me Nigger, Whitey.

misteresh
07/17/2008 @ 12:02pm
Stopped reading at “I stopped watching John Woo films when he started working with the whities.”

Ardvark
07/17/2008 @ 12:07pm
Remember, with her whitie remark Anita Wong also refers to a childhood memory, possibly during her teenage years, when people in general are anything but politicaly correct.

ChevalierAguila
07/17/2008 @ 12:14pm
Instead of whities i would have just said “overpaid hollywood zombies” Van Damme, Cage, Travolta and the likes are just awful actors, regardless of their skin color.

The Visitor
07/17/2008 @ 12:15pm
not looking to turn this into a debate about race, but Aardvark is right. being someone from the Chinese community, i can tell you that there are some racial terms here that are equal to or worse than “whitey”. “gwai loh” for example, is a widely used Cantonese term in Hong Kong and other Cantonese-speaking communities. “gwai” means “ghost” or “devil” or “demon.” but it has sort of become an affectionate term nowadays. some of my Caucasian friends even happily identify themselves as “gwai loh"s!

but still, i admit i had to do a double take when i read that sentence in the review.


fudduf
07/17/2008 @ 2:57pm
for christ’s sake this is a site which is into cult/exploitation films, if you can’t handle “whitey” why are you here in the first place?  chill out, people.

Collin Armstrong
07/17/2008 @ 3:24pm
The whitey comment was in bad taste, but I didn’t take offense and didn’t think any was meant.

Regarding Woo’s Hollywood output, HARD TARGET is a small bit of gonzo genius.  There’s some amazing stunt work and cinematography on display, and a decent performance from Van Damme (that’s *really* saying something).  Keep in mind the man was new to Hollywood and working in the English language for the first time.  I too would love to see the full director’s cut released so I can replace my uber-grainy boot.

I’ve been pretty cool toward the rest of his Hollywood output, and stopped watching after MI 2.  I’m looking forward to RED CLIFF - thanks for the write-up!

indiemaker0583
07/17/2008 @ 3:35pm
Enough with the “whitey” comments. Seriously, if you’re offendend by that, you are on the wrong site. It was a simple joke. (......)

Continued in next post…

Dudley
07/17/2008 @ 5:18pm
“Enough with the “whitey” comments. Seriously, if you’re offendend by that, you are on the wrong site. It was a simple joke.”

If the review had started with “Woo returns to making films with chinks” or “another Woo film without blackies” would these comments not have been offensive? Are we suppose to accept racial slurs because the site is focused on genre films? Some readers of this site may be fine with the use of terms like “whitie” and “chink”, but for others, racial slurs can be very powerful words. Its not always so simple as “Don’t like hatred of the Chinese? Don’t come to the U.S.” or “Don’t like white only bathrooms? Move”. Racism is wrong, no matter what the race… none of it should be acceptable because some people don’t mind being called “whitie”, blackie”, “chink” etc. The slur in this particular review adds nothing to the review, implies that such slurs are acceptable at Twitch and reaks of someone saying racism against certain races is ‘ok’… well I don’t trust someone’s racism for one race not to be turned again my race in the future. I understand this is a sensitive subject and many may think this is not the forum for it, but it was the review’s author that introduced it.


zombeaner
07/17/2008 @ 5:29pm
I’m still hopeful for the film.  Although I hold no hope for those who were actually offended by the review.  Do you really think that if Todd thought it was inappropriate, that he would’ve posted it?  Get a sense of humor.


Todd Brown
07/17/2008 @ 5:51pm
I refer to myself as ‘whitey’, ‘gwai lo’, ‘gaijin’ etc all the time.  Whitey, to me, doesn’t carry the negative connotations any of the other labels listed here do simply because it’s never been used as a perjorative by one culture that is actively supressing another.  Plus, as anybody who has ever met Anita can tell you, the idea that she is in any way, shape or form racist is laughable in the extreme. 

It’s a silly bit of alliteration that neatly sums up a period in Woo’s career.  Sure, she could have spent a paragraph talking about how he was remolded and reshaped by Hollywood to suit the demands of their dominantly white audience and how that altered - and damaged - his work, but frankly I think this does a much better job - much more quickly - of summing up the basic and pretty indisputable fact that there was a cultural divide with Woo in Hollywood and that through that entire period the western approach to film making absolutely always trumped Woo’s eastern origins.  People don’t get all upset when you talk about gay film or black film or urban film or any other sub grouping of film, so why get all worked up over the fact that someone’s pointed out, quite rightly, that Hollywood’s producers are interested almost exclusively in producing ‘white’ film and that anybody working within that system will be expected to conform to it regardless of their own origins?

Now, if she’d said she started ignoring Woo when he started cooking with the crackers, then we’d have an issue ...


Dudley
07/17/2008 @ 6:37pm
I have no problem with talking about anything “white”, “whities” is a whole other matter and brings with it a lot of history and yes, hatred. If in a review of a gay film, the genre was referred to as “fag films”, sure that might take on a different relevance if the author was gay or not, but I would still be offended.

For those that live in an area where race plays little or no role in daily life, I’m happy for them. But there are some of us who are forced to deal with race and racism on a daily basis. We have to watch our children deal with racism. So racist terms are more powerful to us.

I try to teach my children that judging by race, whether that race has been suppressed or not, is wrong. I do the same for Religion and sexual preference.

Were I live, the use of racist terms, especially “whity”, is more often than not, based in hatred.


ChevalierAguila
07/18/2008 @ 3:06am
You know what reminds me all this “whitey” debate here? That part in Ghost World where Enid brings the old fashioned “stereotype black guy” restaurant ad to her art class, and everyone gets “offended” because they have been taught to have a default reaction to “racist” things, not because they actually care about black people’s issues or something of the like. And i’m not saying some of you didn’t got offended for real, but you’re blowing this out of proportion. The reviews is quite poorly written anyway, whitey was the less offensive thing about it.
(......)


...continued in next post.

joshtownsend
07/18/2008 @ 5:25am
“1: At no time did I get the idea this was meant as a serious racial slur. It is a reference to the opinions of some VERY angry Chinese people who saw their favorite director move to the US to pursue a career that wasn’t catering to them, his oldest fans.

2: Being white, I actually laughed when I read that. “Whitey” has been the cause of a great many problems throughout history, compared to which this one is so minor that it hardly feels worth mentioning.”

1.So racial slurs are OK in reviews as long as they aren’t serious and it’s OK because People of another race are “VERY mad” at John Woo. Like white people forced him to direct 5 shitty movies in a row, right.

2.By whitie I take it you mean American or maybe just Hollywood. You know that black, asians and hispanics work in Hollywood right? What about Germans, Italians and Russians are they whities also? America’s Only been around for a few hundred years and

I didn’t find the review racist at all but I found that defense very bigoted and borderline racist. By saying ignorant things like that you make continue making the white race sound racist to the point of self-hatred.

I’m also saddened to hear that John Woo is failing no matter what race he makes movies with.


zombeaner
07/18/2008 @ 6:28am
I’m fairly sensitive about real racism when I see it.  I piss some people off, actually, when I point out the sort of low key institutionalized racism that is often overlooked.  However, none of that is the case here.  It was a HUMOROUS off-handed comment.  I really wish we could just lock these comments or start over because this is getting ridiculous.


Ardvark
07/18/2008 @ 10:56am
To Joshtownsend,

For your comments to make sense you have to make a lot of assumptions first, and I’m glad you listed them because otherwise I’d have been utterly baffled. I’ll get to them in a moment.
But first you’ll get my opinion about racism in general.

For starters, I have no illusions about me being racist or sexist. I am. I think everyone is to some extent. If you’re alone in a parking garage at night, unlocking your car door, you’ll have different thoughts when you’re suddenly approached by:

1:/ a white man
2:/ a black man
3:/ a white woman
4:/ a black woman

First thing going through your mind might be the same (“Huh? Someone’s here?”), but after that it’ll be different.

This is in everyone of us, put there by friends, family, and yes, media. I totally agree people should be careful about it, and the only way to deal with it is being aware of it all the time.

I’ll go as far as saying that I absolutely do not trust it when people say they aren’t racist or sexist. Those are probably the worst offenders of that unconscious, underhanded, institutionalized discrimination that was mentioned a few posts ago.

Back to your comments:

1a/. NO, a racist comment is NOT OK when it’s just funny (a lot of stand-up comedians would disagree but shame on them), but a racist comment CAN BE OK when it gets the point across quicker. Ignoring racism is never going to make it disappear, but using it to steer the reader to your point can add an extra layer. In this case I thought it was properly used.

1b/. NO, it’s NOT OK because “people of another race are mad at John Woo” but it IS OK to describe the general emotions going through the Chinese fanbase at the time. And YES, in my opinion this was a very general emotion going through that Chinese fanbase at that time.

2/. “By whitie I take it you mean American or maybe just Hollywood.” NO, by whitie (in my comment, not the review) I mean the entire Caucasian race. Take that as you will.

To Zombeaner:

I agree it’s more fun talking about the movies, but on the other hand racism (implied or otherwise) is an important issue and I applaud any civil discussion on the subject.

Therefore I am going to open a topic in the “General Discussion” part of the Twitch forum, and copy this entire discussion into it.

OK I’ll bite. First you need to look up the definition for racism. Your throwing that word around when you really mean bigoted. Look it up. If you admit to being racist you think a certain race is superior than another.

I do not.

I’ll say again I had no problem with the review or her use of the term whitie. 

Last thing I’ll say is if I were alone in parking lot and I saw a White Biker looking dude I’d be more scared than if I saw a Black Man in a suit.

I don’t think like that

I did as you said and looked up racism in the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Mind you, it says “usually”, not “always”.
Then I looked up bigot:

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Hmmm… according to these definitions I’d still say that on a semi-conscious level I’m a “racist” (even though I don’t want to be and try not to be), rather than a “bigot”. Still that’s just semantics.

You made a good point about the biker though. Maybe we’re both bigoted towards bikers?

Good civil reply man. I don’t think everyone is a little racist. I have friends of every creed and color and we look at the person, the way there dressed and they way they act. Race is never a factor if the person is well dressed and well mannered. NEVER.

Thanks for the good talk. Not something you see on the net lately.
Just to show you I’m not some anonymous Troll, I’ve attached my creds.

Josh Townsend
http://www.gainesvilleripper.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmvUgNCiymA
http://www.myspace.com/emptybottleloadedgun
http://gainesvilleripper.blogspot.com/
Empty Bottle-Loaded Gun Productions

Gotta love Twitch.
Always surprising with half the calories.

Like Todd, I rejoice in calling myself Gaijin.
Sure, it has some negative elements to it, but the more I joke, the more relaxed and open minded people get.
....or they start lynching.

Whitey comment was shocking but right on the money.
I would have wrote that…or worse.

I just wanted to highlight the point (that Todd already made) that the term “whitey” is never equivalent to other racial slurs, because of the history and context of those slurs, and the power dynamic between races. If you want to be taken seriously in a discussion about race, don’t ever use the “whitey” = “other racial slur” argument